I've been reading contemporary reviews of the film, many of which are laudatory. Here is the one from the New York Times. Please read it. Here is a more contemporary review, acknowledging the "problematic nature" of the film. Here is a direct addressing of that problematic nature. At the time it was released, as far as I can tell, there was little to no comment on the sexism of the film, not to mention the kidnapping of the women. There was comment on the superlative dancing and singing. Indeed, all but one of the brothers, and all of the women, were professional dancers. The most famous part of the movie is clearly the barn raising dance. But this moment strikes me as just as important, as the brothers yearn for the women they fallen for. It's almost operatic to me.
Laney talked in class today about how she didn't take seriously—or too seriously—that "problematic nature" we all were struck by—and some of the rest of you echoed that. This is not the Dardenne brothers; it's not even Creed. It's people singing and dancing on clearly fake movie sets (interestingly enough, Stanley Donan did want to shoot this on location; that would have been interesting to see). The classic Hollywood musical was designed to be escapist fare, entertainment plain and simple. It could get serious—South Pacific addressed racism, as did West Side Story, along with youth gangs and the effect of poverty on youth. But even in those musicals, you had this:
And in West Side Story, while making a legitimate point about prejudice against Puerto Rican immigrants, you still were mostly blown away by the dancing:
So....
1. Emory asked "what was the point" of Seven Brides for Seven Brothers. It does have a story and theme and a point, muddled perhaps, but there is something going on there, certainly with the issues between Adam and Millie. So aside from the dancing and singing and humor: what point do you think it was trying to make? What is it about? Don't dismiss this question even if you hated the movie. And maybe the movie didn't succeed fully in this. But as some of you said in class, some things are different at the end than they were in the beginning. And Adam certainly is changed.
2. This movie is sexist and un-PC as can be; we all get that. But the dancing is extraordinary as is much of the singing. Some of you expressed your liking for it. So how do you reconcile the 50s attitudes it presents with the positive parts of it—allow for them to co-exist? And if you can't, why not?
3. One of the questions we asked in class was did the movie itself get the joke? Was it aware of in any way, shape, or form, its "problematic nature"?
200 words in all, as always. Tomorrow, we will begin what is considered by many critics to be the greatest American comedy ever, Some Like It Hot (1959), directed by Billy Wilder, and starring Marilyn Monroe, Tony Curtis, and Jack Lemmon. The British Film Institute has it as the 42nd greatest movie ever made. The American Film Institute has named it the greatest American comedy ever and the 22nd greatest American film ever. Here's the trailer.
See you all tomorrow.
1. I think it is making a statement about the role of women and men in society at the time. I think that at the time many men married women so that they had someone to cook, clean, and take care of the children and that is exactly what Millie said. Millie told Adam that that was all he wanted her for and that it was unreasonable for him to do so. I think that this was the point of the movie but I still don’t think that the thought was completely finished because to me Adam never really learned his lesson.
ReplyDelete2. I thought it was entertaining even though I disagree with many of the principles. I think that the colors and dancing were all well done. The singing was good but the lyrics not so much. It really reminded me of Oklahoma! with the way it looked and the outfits that everyone was in.
3. After the first half I didn’t think that the writers were “in on the joke” but after some more plot was developed and Millie spoke her mind a bit more I was somewhat pleased with it. I think that the sexism wasn’t simply apparent but instead an issue the movie was dealing with.
1. I was not exactly sure what the movie was trying to get across, but it seemed to be about men and women, and love. The movie emphasized the roles of men and women and the way they differed and it also focused on love. Although the love in the movie wasn't the most realistic I thought that the movie tried to make it about love by making Adam admit in the end that he did not just marry Milly for practically reasons but because he loved her and the she is not just like the next women. This same theme is also reiterated in the brothers who mope around when separated from the women they love and won't just go find new women like Adam suggested because they love the women they met in town.
ReplyDelete2. I think for me personally to just keep watching the movie and letting both facts of the movie co-exist but not affect the other. While I was watching it I knew that it had sexist and problematic connotations, but I also knew that the choreography was really very good. By knowing both of these things but not letting them change the other fact I could appreciate certain aspects of the film while noting the problematic nature of others.
3. I thought that to a certain aspect it was self aware. For example the movie definitely wanted you to laugh at the oldest brother's ideals and attitude and that was made clear when he changed his behavior by the end and when Gideon called him out. Also I thought the viewer was definitely supposed to see the kidnapping as wrong and crazy because of Milly's reaction, but I thought the movie was problematic and not aware of it when the girls that were kidnapped fall in love with the brothers. Also as someone was saying in class earlier it seemed self aware when the oldest brother was telling Milly she would be cleaning and cooking and the viewer saw her less than happy reaction, but the movie was not self aware when she did end up falling into the domestic roles that were expected of her.
1. I think the movie was actually pretty good for the time as it subtly tried to push guys to be more courteous to women. Although there were SO many problematic things going on (so so many), I think the underlying theme was trying to change people’s attitudes towards women while also having enough problematic stuff to not offend close minded people or turn them away from the movie. It contradicted itself a lot, but at the end of the movie, we get that love prevails over all and that it’s way easier to get ladies if you have a little respect for them. There are problematic problems everywhere you turn in this movie, but they might have been put in to keep the audience at the time happy while still trying to change the way men act towards women a little bit.
ReplyDelete2. I loved the dancing, especially because it was basically a gymnastics performance which was very fun to watch. Obviously, I would rather have fun dancing and no political incorrectness. I think it is totally fine to appreciate the wild dance moves while also realizing that there are some gross 50s attitudes. I think watching it I was thinking how I love how we have lost a lot of this outright sexism, but I also don’t want to demonize the 50s and say every aspect of it was bad, because obviously the dancing was awesome. It’s good to appreciate things of the past but also recognize the bad parts and just know the parts you want to take from the scene into the present day (AKA: take the fun dancing and appreciate it, and appreciate how far we’ve come with sexism and such, while realizing there is always room to improve).
3. I think the movie was aware of “the joke”. It seemed so overtly problematic that it must have been making some kind of comment. It definitely went back and forth on being problematic, and on whether or not the guys had learned their lessons, and on whether the women knew they were being oppressed or not. It definitely had to be making fun of guys who are super problematic.
1) I think the musical was about romance and how men and women build a marriage. Even thought Adam’s manipulation was certainly questionable, Adam and Millie always fought and worked things out. They could see both typically chose the right thing to do at the end of their arguments. The movie exaggerates gender stereotypes and but shows them as acceptable as well as having characters break them without judgment. All the songs centered on dating and feelings of love.
ReplyDelete2) They can totally coexist. Honestly, the blatant sexism was hilarious to me. One time someone tried to explain to me how there were feminists, misandrists, and feminazis and how to be a proper feminist. This person was an 11-year-old boy. The point is, sometimes things are so ignorant and uninformed that their offensiveness isn’t even offensive; it’s just funny. It didn’t really offend me when Adam said dumb things about women. It upset me more when Millie didn’t let him sleep in a tree and accepted all the boys despite constantly failing her. They coexist because they are so obviously wrong its laughable and they don’t hinder my ability to enjoy the movie, like Alice and Emery, I’d rewatch it.
3) I don’t want to say no and be stupid for not getting the undertones of the plot but no I don’t think it was aware of its problematic nature. Every now and then a joke would be made that discouraged sexism or the ridiculousness of gender roles. Overall, the plays ending didn’t feel like it properly called attention to the issues. Even if movie was aware and trying to show the social norms as wrong, it showed them as wrong but harmless, when they aren’t.
1. I think the movie was about love, marriage and gender stereotypes/ differences. I think the movie’s goal was to put across a statement about women's roles in love, marriage, and in the home through blatantly sexist portrayals. The movie brings up a lot of ideas about the unfairness and “problematic nature” of many of the scenes while also created a comedy aspect. The movie was also, obviously from the multiple songs about it, was trying to make a point of love prevailing over all else such as Adam and Milly getting over their differences and all the brothers getting married despite the sublet kidnapping strategy.
ReplyDelete2. I personally really enjoyed watching the movie. Some of the blatant sexism was laughable for me because it was so outrageous and obviously not meant to be taken very literally. There were some parts where I was thinking about the problematic nature such as the kidnapping scene which was the only part I wasn't really laughing off. Despite that scene i thought they coexisted very well and the dance scenes were epic and I thoroughly enjoyed them.
3. I do think the movie was aware of its problematic nature as everything was exaggerated to the max. Such as when Adam would make statements of how Milly’s role was to clean up after them, it might not be clear if this is serious or not, but it becomes clear there is a joke there when Adam throws something comedically on the floor before exiting the room.
1. Despite my hate for musicals, I actually really enjoyed this film. Personally, I think the film is mainly for entertainment purposes, with all the singing, dancing, and joking, but if it is trying to make a point, I think the movie tries to convey how women should be treated just as anyone else. At first, Adam and his brothers look at women as people who should clean, cook, and tend to the house. But as the movie progresses, Millie teaches the boys that women should be respected, loved, and courted, which the boys finally realize. Adam, the eldest brother, finally realizes his love for Millie after living in exile for the winter. If there is any point that the directors are trying to make, it is that women should be treated and respected much more fairly.
ReplyDelete2. As I said, I usually dislike musicals, but I really liked this one. Because of how obvious and laughable the sexism was, I did not really let it get under my skin. I think it played into the point of the movie, and coexisted well with the extraordinary dancing. Usually in musicals when they break out singing and dancing I get really annoyed, viewing it as unnecessary. But in this movie, I found it both entertaining and funny, especially the scene where the brothers are trying to court the g=seven girls and get into a dance off.
3. I think the movie must have been aware of the sexist issues it was presenting. Some of the things they said were so obvious, especially considering the time period it was created, where women's rights were slowly becoming a larger issue. For example, the scene where Adam is in town talking about the woman he wants is so blatantly sexist that I don't see how the filmmaker could not have been aware of the problematic nature.
1. I think this movie is sort of about love, specifically the relationship between husband and wife. The movie presents an interesting case: seven men, who have little to none social experience, trying to 'get' wives, of whom change their lives to be more civilized. The film talks to how our romantic partners can change us for the better. The film is also about how messed up/different things were back in the 1850s (or whenever the film is set). Because I do find it hard to believe that this sexist rhetoric was normal for the 1950s (when the film was made). Although some stuff overlapped a little in my view.
ReplyDelete2. As much as it seemed I didn't like the movie in class, I actually enjoyed it a lot. At the core, for me, a movie is meant for entertainment. So it's hard to argue against this movie given how entertaining it was; the dancing, the colors, and the comedy all were amazing. You just can't think about this movie too much, because its hard to argue with the movies set of moral values. But, I find it hard to not enjoy myself, it is a movie where you can/need to turn you mind off and just have fun.
3. As I mentioned earlier, I find it hard to believe that this movie was really normal in how it presented its sexist views for the time (1950s). The movie does make an effort to have Millie be a strong woman who understands how backwards these brothers are. And I have to agree with what someone said in class; that, even though its not an excuse for kidnapping, you can understand why the brothers took the women. They really didn't know better. Which, I guess, can sort of speak to the men in the modern days that view women objectively, and sort of say how its not completely their fault, they just need to be taught better. So, yes, I do think this movie was aware of itself.
1. I think the movie was about romance and love. I think it was making a point about the roles of relationships in the beginning, but it felt like that statement slowly diminished and was less apparent the further and further we got into the film. I think despite its ending, the general theme of the movie was the joys of love and what great benefits it can bring. We see this with the girls singing and dancing about how amazing it is to get married in June and how after you get married everything changes.
ReplyDelete2. Despite my negativity towards the film, the dancing scene at the picnic or whatever it was was very impressive and very entertaining, especially because of how few cuts there were. I think they can maybe coexist because someone can be talented despite their values and beliefs, but I think the caveat is being able to be so entertaining that the audience forgets about your political incorrectness, which I think they achieved in this scene. Otherwise it's hard for people to look past your morals to see you abilities.
3. At first I was sure that the movie was aware of what it was doing, but as it continued the characters became more complacent and accepting so I wasn't really sure. The ending of the movie definitely solidified that the movie wasn't in on this joke and that these were actually some of their morals and values. With the women willingly marrying their kidnappers, their fathers allowing this, and Millie forgiving Adam (even though he never apologized nor admitted what he did wrong) it was very clear that the sexism in the movie was exaggerated only slightly and that a lot of the behaviors, manners, and jokes were actual representations of the mindset they were in during this time period.
1. I think the movie was purely about marriage and the change of definition of marriage throughout the musical. In the beginning of Seven Brides for Seven Brothers, the brothers all wanted a wife to clean up the house and make dinner, but towards the end, although the movie still represented sexist behavior, the brothers learned how to respect and treat woman. The definition of having a wife changes from a woman who is purely there to be a wife to someone they truly love.
ReplyDelete2. My favorite part of this movie was the singing and the dancing! This really brought out the movie and I would have watched it for the musical aspect alone. Usually I don't enjoy musicals but I really enjoyed this one. The singing and dancing was amazing, and while most the performances it allowed the viewers to forget about sexist comment in the dance moves, allowing the men and woman to coexist.
3. I do believe the movie was aware of the jokes because the jokes were so openly problematic. I do think there were several jokes or references that the movie was not aware of. The majority of the jokes seemed too blatantly sexist to not be aware of these controversial jokes.
1.It's almost about the triumph of "domesticity" whatever that is over the pig-sty state we see the seven brothers live in in the beginning. It depicts women who do work in the kitchen and who have power primarily through sex—and through withholding it. This is a '50s movie, out of an era of conservatism. By the end, Millie and the other girls almost make good suburban white picket-fence husbands out of the brothers. The movie views the brothers' messiness and kidnapping of the girls as humorous antics (boys will be boys), and though it condemns these to some degree, there are no real consequences.
ReplyDelete2. As long as you see the problems and identify them as wrong, I don't see much of a problem watching this. I do think it's a bad idea to watch around little kids who might not see these issues. It's like having a less-than-PC grandparent over for dinner. You don't let them say anything too bad in front of the grandkids, but you have to realize that they're from another time. As long as you don't mistake the offensive parts for truth, you can still appreciate good parts.
3. Absolutely, but only about certain parts. The '50s were conservative and sexist, but that does not mean they thought the rape of the Sabines was an admirable deed. My guess is that the perspective of the creators was closest to the ultimate vision of Adam. He realizes how he would feel if someone carried off his newborn daughter to marry her without his consent. This is still a paternalistic and demeaning viewpoint. That said, there is an element of self-conscious humor around the subject of sexism.
I think this movie is about finding love even when the circumstances aren't really fit for love to occur. For example how all the women fell in love with their kidnapers. I also think it's addressing stereotypes of women and how they shouldn't always be treated as objects a man can just obtain. I think that's a message that Millie tried to relay to all the brothers while they were finding wives. All the songs they sang were about love and lack of it so that really added to the theme as well.
ReplyDelete2. I think that you have to not judge the movie too hard because of its sexism and lack of people of color because that wasn't the time period. The important thing I think is that the watcher addresses those two facts, I think the problem comes when they are ignored. Personally I hated the sexist comments and actions but this is what women had to go through then so I couldn't think about it for too long. I think the movie has other characteristics,such as great dancing and fighting, to it that help the watcher ignore some of the political incorrectness of the film. And the dancing and fighting as adds to the entertainment of it.
3. I think that the extreme old timey thinking such as Adam's was supposed to be a joke because it was so extreme in the beginning and over time is was less present. I don't think that the part about women being at home raising kids, cooking, and cleaning was a joke because all of those ideas for women were heavily present in the 50s. I think the writers' intent for some of the movie to be a joke but not the entire thing.
1.I thought the movie was about how far respect can go in terms of relationships. We saw how much the girls fell in love with the boys when they treated them with respect, and again (although deeply problematic) after the boys kidnapped the girls they were respectful of their distance until the girls were ready to engage with them. And when Millie kicked out Adam, it was because of how disrespectful and awful he was to kidnap the girls, but she took him back when he finally "respected" her as a wife and acknowledged her other attributes other than an object there to cook and clean for him. The moral wasn't blatantly obvious, but seeing how Millie and Adam's relationship was crumbling was because of how disrespectfully he treated her hints at the fact that respect is a key component in holding relationships together.
ReplyDelete2. The political incorrectness and sexism was masked by the singing and dancing, and kind of provided a break from the movie all together. I think that the singing and dancing was an amazing addition to the movie, and it definitely kept me paying attention and awake. I know that if this had been a normal film, I wouldn't have been as intrigued by the story line. But the wonderland it's set in and how dreamy it all feels is so incredible to me, and I found myself really enjoying it despite all of its wrongs.
3. Upon thinking about it, I think the movie was definitely aware of its sexist nature; in some ways more than others, though. I don't think they were aware of the sexism in making Millie be of the traditional domestic woman role, but I do think they recognized the kidnapping as a highly sexist and unjust act. I suspect that they made that part of the plot to dramatize it and make it more comedic, in a way. The directors and writers definitely deliberately made them kidnap the girls to show how untrained they were when it came to women, and probably to allude to the idea that women are so difficult to court, so the directors had these uncultured boys kidnap the girls to win over their hearts. That part of the plot, although it was problematic, was definitely strategic in putting the boys in the wrong, and learning their lesson to treat women with respect.
1. I think this movie is about love, marriage, and respect, but I guess what I got out of this the most was the kind of reverse fairy tale vibe it gave. Usually in a story, like Beauty and the Beast, it’s the “courting” that interests us, the build from strangers to lovers to husband and wife, but here, we follow Milly and Adam from husband and wife to strangers to lovers. I liked that about it. That song, “first comes love, second comes marriage, third comes the baby in the baby carriage,” comes to mind when I think of old fashioned standards of relationships, and if there’s one thing this movie isn’t, it’s standard. Here, first come marriage, second comes the baby, and third comes love. But love does come.
ReplyDelete2. I was able to reconcile the two, the artistry and the backwardness, by not holding it to the same standards as I might a current film. One of the hardest things for me to do is look past my personal views on a matter and hear what other people might have to say about it, so I did have to make an active effort not to write this movie off from the start. This is a good film, and there’s more to it than just dancing as there is more to it than just prehistoric views on matrimony. Just in hearing Laney say that in class made me realize it was true. Just as a person has far more to them than one opinion, a film has far more to it than its sexist inclinations.
3. Yes, I think it was aware and was making a comment, but I think it fell a tad short of effective with this “comment” because of the ending. Endings are so important, and the ending of this movie, while funny, was not all that it could have been. If it wanted to make a point, it could have rather easily I assume, but instead they went with a “joke” having the girls turn to ask their fathers if they could say “I do” to their bride-grooms. I think for this movie to have successfully made a comment on gender roles, it shouldn’t have done that. That made me question whether the “joke” was actually a joke. I guess, what I’m trying to say is that this movie had plenty of opportunities to make its stance on marriage clear, but it didn’t; it chose the joke over substance and while I still like the movie, I think it was a missed opportunity to really say something important.